On the Apr. 16, 2024 episode of his Rumble show, Turning Point USA founder and president Charlie Kirk interviewed Jeremy Carl — a Senior Fellow at the far-right Claremont Institute who authored a book bemoaning “anti-white racism.” Both Kirk and Carl criticized the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which Kirk said “created a beast” that “turned into an anti-white weapon.”

Charlie Kirk asked Jeremy Carl how they can “best fight back” against being called “white nationalist[s]” for complaining about “anti-white racism.” Carl responded that “the simple answer to the white nationalist question” is that he simply isn’t one, and that he’d tell people if he were.

Carl also suggested a reexamination of how the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is enforced. Among other things, the Act prohibits discrimination based on race, color, sex, and national origin in public accommodations, public education, and employment. And while Carl insisted that he had no intention of “relitigat[ing] the wisdom” of passing it, he criticized its usefulness today.

“But we’re as far from that time right now as they were from the Wright brothers,” he told Kirk. “So there’s a lot of things that’ve changed in American society. We’re not worried about people not being served at lunch counters anymore.” (This is probably because, again, the Civil Rights Act prohibits the discrimination that Carl is no longer worried about.)

But Kirk went even further.

“Yeah, and the Civil Rights Act, though let’s be clear, created a beast,” he said. “And that beast has now turned into an anti-white weapon.”

“Yeah. And that’s the reality,” Carl responded. “And so we just need to fundamentally re-look at a lot of our civil rights legal regime. And without that, even though I don’t think it’s sort of the magic bullet, but I think without that there’s limits to the amount of progress we’re gonna make.”

Charlie Kirk: So let’s get back into the anti-white racism. How do we then best fight back and withstand the criticism where they’re gonna say this is just a whitelash, or this is just you being a white nationalist?

Jeremy Carl: Right. Well I mean the simple answer to the white nationalist question is I’m just — I’m not. You know, I’d tell them if I were, right? But I’m just not. So that’s — that’s really easy. I mean there should be a backlash against the fact that there being racists, because that’s good. I mean, you know, you shouldn’t be able to be racist without accountability. So I don’t have any problem with that.

But I think there’s lots of different tactics. Whether it’s lawfare, whether it’s — and kind of a creation, I think over time, of kind of getting — we need to really re-look at how we’ve enforced civil rights laws. And, again, I’m not saying that because I think we need to relitigate the wisdom of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. It was put in at a particular time to solve —

Charlie Kirk: Oh I’ll criticize it.

Jeremy Carl: Yeah, yeah. But it’s — but I mean —

Charlie Kirk: That’s Caldwell’s thing.

Jeremy Carl: Yeah. I mean — yeah, and Chris Caldwell is a colleague of mine. And I think it’s — you know, it’s fine to do that. But I think just as a political strategy, I think if people wanna say ‘Hey, there were absolutely real problems that it was addressing,’ whether you think it did it in the perfect way or not. But we’re as far from that time right now as they were from the Wright brothers. So there’s a lot of things that’ve changed in American society. We’re not worried about people not being served at lunch counters anymore.

Charlie Kirk: Yeah, and the Civil Rights Act, though let’s be clear, created a beast. And that beast has now turned into an anti-white weapon.

Jeremy Carl: Yeah. And that’s the reality. And so we just need to fundamentally re-look at a lot of our civil rights legal regime. And without that, even though I don’t think it’s sort of the magic bullet, but I think without that there’s limits to the amount of progress we’re gonna make.