In a recent episode of Red Ice Radio, host Henrik Palmgren interviewed retired alt-right psychology professor Kevin MacDonald about the latter’s recent Reddit AMA session, in which he was asked for his thoughts of “Pepe the Frog” as a white nationalist symbol.

Pepe is a cartoon frog drawn by Matt Furie as part of a comic called Boys Club. Eventually, Pepe’s image found its way to message boards like 4chan, after which it achieved meme status. Recently it has been adopted by the white nationalist alt-right, whose adherents spread racist images of Pepe.

In this context, the anthropomorphic frog has been seen in an SS uniform outside of a concentration camp, dressed in a Klan robe, watching in amusement as the Twin Towers are destroyed, etc. It was this use of the cartoon that convinced the Anti-Defamation League to add Pepe to its hate symbol database.

“I think Pepe’s great,” he exclaimed. “I think that it gives a style to things.”

Memes like Pepe and “words like ‘cuckservative’ have been so effective and so appropriate because, you know, they get to the fundamental issue that so many people — so many white people — are cuckolded. You know? They have no problem with becoming a minority. They can see the disaster that’s unfolding. They see that we can’t we’re getting to the point where we can’t elect a president anymore. And soon we’ll be a minority and so on. We are being cuckolded. So this has been a beautiful term.”

MacDonald acknowledged that the alt-right “need[s] a symbol” and Pepe would be perfect for that role. “You know, we need graphic art, and that’s what we’ve got here with that. Every movement needs graphic art.” Palmgren also mentioned the recent inclusion of the hate symbol designation by the ADL, which MacDonald appeared to scoff at.

“The ADL is going to go after anything that they think could possibly be a problem,” he replied. “I think they [the ADL] just look stiff in the eyes of the younger crowd,” asserted Palmgren. “They’re, you know, waiting for something of a true counter-culture to come along, you know? So I think this actually attracts more people.”